The Vandhaal forum.

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Darkdude — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 02:11:16 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Tue 27 Dec, 2011 3:11 am (GMT 1)

Don't have to download MSN, use web version on live.com

That reminds me, you guys should post your emails in the private forum so I can add you.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Glitch — Mon, 26 Dec 2011 03:07:17 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Mon 26 Dec, 2011 4:07 am (GMT 1)

I need to download AoM again... and msn

Comp. upgrade caused me to lose it again

General Talk :: RE: just something

Darkdude — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:39:17 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2011 5:39 am (GMT 1)

Login no longer redirects to the non-www domain. The non-www itself still doesn't work, but shouldn't be a problem. Just enter through the www domain.
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General Talk :: RE: just something

The_Vandhaal — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:48:16 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 23:48 pm (GMT 1)

Hmm yes...i noticed the exact same thing after I had rebuild the dtabase from scratch again... Oscar also I think.

I haven't changed any settings...so probably its caused by the entire deletion and newly build database stuff.

But i think i fixed it.....not sure....i chnaged the domain in the admin pannel to include the www. i tested myself and i get directed to the www.domianname after login....could you also check?
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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General Talk :: RE: just something

Darkdude — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 04:57:41 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 5:57 am (GMT 1)

There may be a problem with the login. Or rather, a special case of the general problem with your www domain prefix.

Just now when I try to log in I get 404 error. I noticed that after submitting the login, the URL address was changed to remove the "www" prefix. Realizing the possible problem, I just went back to the page with the prefix, refreshed, and I was logged in. It seems that login takes the request but redirects you to the domain without the www prefix, which has not been correctly integrated to the non-prefix domain.

So people who do not notice or know about this may think that they are unable to login. It's not a problem for me, but I'm just letting everyone else know.

The truly strange part about this is that I do not remember this happening before, when you first fixed the forum. So if you changed something between my last post and now, perhaps look into it?
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for mp Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds

The_Vandhaal — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:31:55 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 1:31 am (GMT 1)

El Flesh wrote:

Maybe we can try to organize a massive game - uses less resources than Titans. GAME RANGER!

Sure just beep me up in the forum whenever you organise it....i personally don't know any people who play it anymore and i don't know anybody on Gameranger who plays it... so I am not able to organise anything anymore unfortunatly
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for mp Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds

El Flesh — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 06:49:51 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 7:49 am (GMT 1)

Maybe we can try to organize a massive game - uses less resources than Titans. GAME RANGER!
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General Talk :: Benton a new hero is born

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:35:10 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Subject: Benton a new hero is born
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 3:35 am (GMT 1)

Latest random internet junk trending topic

aaaaaannddd....its spin offs

and ofcourse

and now we know who caused the major panic at our memorial day

and so on and so on...more google results??? sure !! check em here

this hero deserves an AoM TT taunt ( example of use would be: vandhaals beserker lonely starting Ulf charges as always after El Flesh his Hades villies and troops and all run away like chickens (deers)
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

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General Talk :: just something

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:57:56 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Subject: just something
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:57 am (GMT 1)

As I already had posted on the blog...the forum and stuff are up again.....not that i have the illusion that somebody cares...or even reads this...but doesn't matter.... its all up again....for how long?...we have to see......so enjoy it while it lasts

forum is fully functional...only all attachments (downloads) have to be re attached.....all files are still on the server.....not sure if i ever add them again
gallery had to be installed from scracth....so all old info about authors, desciptions and comments are gone forever..and some image links in the forum are ofcourse broken due to this...

kk thats about it

warning this message will self delete within 30 days
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

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General Talk :: RE: Eric Kaufmann: Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:50:28 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:50 am (GMT 1)

Btw...not related to the video or something ( i think at least not..not sure have not watched it) but i came across it on the news and thought i share it with my "religion lovin" friends here in the forum (Darkdude, El Flesh and others who care).....It seems that El Flesh is doing a poor job with his anti religion campaign .....latest (scienentific ) research indicated that Christian religion is growing rapidly again ( and its the biggest worldwide)

anyway ..vandhaal out
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: Welcome to the TVO recorded games section

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:34:32 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:34 am (GMT 1)

NOTICE!!! Due to that the previous sql database was deleted by somebody the recorded games files where no longer attached to the rec posts....unfortunatly this can only be fixed by adding all files again to the posts......files are still all here....time will tell if i ever attach them again
the entire rec attachment system is functional for adding new files
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

Main Vandhaal webbie -- Mirror Vandhaal webbie

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for mp Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:29:56 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:29 am (GMT 1)

........(continued from lets get ..balbalbla eso thread)......played also some swgb stuff....forgot almost entirely all the controls and stuff.....but i was curious again how the game looked and felt so i played two campaign scenarios......swgb is slow compared ....or i am too slow (thats probably it) to aom tt but still as enjoyable as it ever was
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:25:53 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:25 am (GMT 1)

Played after ages and ages and ages again some supremacy games...great stuff! aom tt is still as enjoyable as it always has been

and......read more (continue in other swgb thread)
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Very important update: Extra AoM TT taunts pack

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 01:13:16 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 2:13 am (GMT 1)

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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on GameRanger!

Darkdude — Sun, 01 May 2011 01:36:20 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sun 01 May, 2011 2:36 am (GMT 1)

So I reinstalled AoM:TT.

Is ESO taken down or something? When I try to log in it says that "there is an updated version of AoM:TT that is required to play". Of course I'm already version 1.03. The game automatically downloaded and installed it on the first attempt to play online.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on GameRanger!

The_Vandhaal — Sun, 01 May 2011 01:24:26 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Sun 01 May, 2011 2:24 am (GMT 1)

WOW that was pretty much a lightning victory wasn't it

I think we won that devestating because Darkude send us his battlespirirt over chat

Taking the centre was a good move...hades was next to me and i wanted to crush him.....well i killed some of his archer crappies because at a certain point they where attacking with 3 vs oscar and me at our forward point...from all sides.....Hades thought he could level my hillforts with siege.....but i love it when those Huskarls make chages at siege and cu trhough enemy lines like true beserkers and once the siege is destroyed they walk simply back with ahrdly a scratch.

anyway one by one their spirit broke at a rapid rate........too bad...because i was just circeling around the hades dudes city in order to crush him from the back.....anyway great fun...and yes i also though they would be stronger because they where the gogogogog type of dudes
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

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The Vandhaal Online :: Very important update: Extra AoM TT taunts pack

The_Vandhaal — Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:01:53 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Subject: Very important update: Extra AoM TT taunts pack
Posted: Sat 30 Apr, 2011 1:01 am (GMT 1)

NEW KIDS AOM TT CUSTOM TAUNTS FOR USE ON ESO AND THE TVO

Just to break the serene silence in this forum some extra custom taunts I have installed......so here they are for download

check the read me for installing info

They are RAW, HARDCORE and POWERFULL ...so they will help you to get into that special state of a real warrior: RUTHLESS BESERK MODE WITHOUT MERCY!!

DOWNLOAD THE NEW KIDS AOM TT TAUNTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

Oscar — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:50:49 GMT

Author: Oscar
Posted: Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:50 am (GMT 1)

Oscar's no mercy teddy bear is ready for battle!

:2pistol:
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

Darkdude — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 19:29:59 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2011 20:29 pm (GMT 1)

You guys who frequently use MSN

Please ask Alb and Oscar if they would like to participate. Ask Roman Hersir too if you see him.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

El Flesh — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:52:10 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2011 17:52 pm (GMT 1)

Ya sure I'd like to PLAY in it
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

The_Vandhaal — Sat, 09 Apr 2011 18:02:46 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Sat 09 Apr, 2011 19:02 pm (GMT 1)

Darkdude wrote:

I really want to see a rematch between you and Albericht

Vandhaal, we should get a "I... Am... Beowulf!" gif animation for the occasion.

well if you find one around the internet just link or post and i will add it

and as said I will also join (if i have the time)

as Albericht probably takes Germans i will go for Greeks.....since unfortunatly i only played with those two factions.
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

Darkdude — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 17:29:42 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2011 18:29 pm (GMT 1)

I really want to see a rematch between you and Albericht

Vandhaal, we should get a "I... Am... Beowulf!" gif animation for the occasion.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

Glitch — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:05:39 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2011 17:05 pm (GMT 1)

I don't mind entering. I can avenge Carthage

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

Darkdude — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:43:01 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2011 3:43 am (GMT 1)

As I said in the first post, it will probably be in a month or two. Do you think you'll have time then?

The two people that should have been in the last tournament were you and Oscar. I hope you two can join the fight this time.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Probing for interest - TotA II

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 06 Apr 2011 21:48:59 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2011 22:48 pm (GMT 1)

depends on when you organise this and IF i have the time then

(and no i am no pussy so i wont whine that i haven't played the game in Ages )
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

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The Vandhaal Online :: Probing for interest - TotA II

Darkdude — Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:31:46 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Subject: Probing for interest - TotA II
Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2011 16:31 pm (GMT 1)

Who would be interested in another Rome Total War tournament - Tournament of the Ancients II - in about a month or two?

If there are about 6 guys here who would like to participate, I think we can go for it.

I was just rereading the old threads from the last tourney. You should do that if you need some reminding of how awesome it was. May the epic battle of Alb (Germania) vs Glitch (Carthage) of the last tourney inspire us! (As well as Vandhaal's photoshopped pictures of Germania fans )
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on GameRanger!

El Flesh — Mon, 04 Apr 2011 14:33:30 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 15:33 pm (GMT 1)

So its going to be gameranger from now on?

Will we make one night a month (fridays pls) to start when we must meet?
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The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: First GameRanger FIGHT CLUB party

Glitch — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:59:52 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Mon 28 Mar, 2011 14:59 pm (GMT 1)

Those character figures are just so freaking awesome

Also this was a fun game. You nearly won but Oscar's titan saved the day.

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on GameRanger!

Darkdude — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:23:08 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sun 27 Mar, 2011 23:23 pm (GMT 1)

Guys...play with me...on Starcraft....STARCRAFT!!!!
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on GameRanger!

The_Vandhaal — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:21:39 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Sun 27 Mar, 2011 4:21 am (GMT 1)

Damn this was fun and historical....our first GAMERANGER PARTY

your heroes for the evening where

Oscar+ Glitch+Albericht+VF+me

it took a bit to get it all running for everybody but then we finally could start our mass slaughter

check the rec of this historical event here:

http://www.vandhaal.gamingextremes.us/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23111

:sparta:
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>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

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The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: First GameRanger FIGHT CLUB party

The_Vandhaal — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:20:57 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Subject: First GameRanger FIGHT CLUB party
Posted: Sun 27 Mar, 2011 4:20 am (GMT 1)

this a a historical rec of our first ever GameRanger fight club party

crazy slaughter

heroes where

Oscar, Fanatsy, Glitch, Albericht, and yours truly

++

++

and ofcourse some:

+

map

General Talk :: RE: V's secret post has been found...

Darkdude — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 12:13:18 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2011 13:13 pm (GMT 1)

Brilliant.
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General Talk :: V's secret post has been found...

El Flesh — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:59:01 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Subject: V's secret post has been found...
Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2011 21:59 pm (GMT 1)

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1309951/171c30ac/
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:14:27 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 6:14 am (GMT 1)

Praise the ever-absent lord! It is not an everyday event for someone to shake their dearly held beliefs of a deity. We must mark the day that you became unsaved!

Quote:

however I must say that i still hold teleology to b in itself useful and the metaphysical world that it governs to b outside of observable phenomena.

It'll only be a matter of time before you reconsider that too, then.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:01:14 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 21:01 pm (GMT 1)

By metaphysical do you mean abstractions of thought?

Otherwise lol @ metaphysical world

Also the only thing I really like about quantum indeterminacy from a philosophical perspective is that it debunks the idea that the universe has some sort of divine order (not that it needed much de-bunking).

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Albericht — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:01:38 GMT

Author: Albericht
Posted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 19:01 pm (GMT 1)

Well im starting to reconsider my belief in a superior manifestation of power and order, and perhaps replacing it with the physical laws that govern our universe. This due to an extent on the lack of evidence or technical measurement for believing in god, however I must say that i still hold teleology to b in itself useful and the metaphysical world that it governs to b outside of observable phenomena.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:45:18 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 15:45 pm (GMT 1)

As far as I am aware Alb is no longer a theist.

And/or if he is a theist he thinks God is an asshole.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 03:19:15 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 4:19 am (GMT 1)

A new thread then?

I'm curious how Alb's theism will be reflected in this discussion.

Stop chatting on MSN and post in a forum so that your words are permanent, dammit.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 06:37:51 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 7:37 am (GMT 1)

Sorry for taking a couple of days to reply. I've been having a variation on this discussion with Alb for a while now, and I would love to continue it with you; but it is far too convoluted and bloated in this context for me to attempt to continue, and I have explained myself awfully.

My initial reaction was also out of context. I'd rather just start the conversation again at some point in the future. I'm sure it will arise again.

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

El Flesh — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 03:51:47 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 20 Feb, 2011 4:51 am (GMT 1)

I think he was even isis, too.

L4D I like because it is an apocalypse scenario; something I have always found fascinating for some reason...
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 07:10:05 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 8:10 am (GMT 1)

By the way, since this is the thread about the writings of Yudkowsky:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/64/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality

You MUST read the part of "Rationalist Hamlet". Shakespeare would be proud.

(I am aware that it was someone else who wrote it, but anyways...)
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 05:20:08 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 6:20 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

I put no thought into this definition.

You cannot imagine a world where you would wish to extend your life?

For my question it is permitted to assume whatever level of perfection in this "paradise" as necessary. After all, it is simply a benefit/cost calculation that I am proposing. Certainly there are futures which I would not trade a million years of torture for. But my point was that I can imagine some futures for which I would.

I realize that this hypothetical "paradise" may not be of relevance to the cryo question any more. For that I will define "paradise" as the post-Singularity world, where the only limit to what can be achieved through intelligence are the physical laws of the universe.

Quote:

I stated that you cannot rationally justify imposing such a world. I did not state that I would actively destroy it. Whether or not I would "push the button" as means to euthanize a nuclear-fall out is contingent upon whether or not the organisms in question wish to die.

Okay, I sense some confusion here (what does "such a world" refer to again?), either from myself (most likely), you, or us both. So allow me to repost the thread of discussion:

Quote:

I assume that you are actively working towards global destruction of all life, because that is the only worthwhile thing you can do while you appease your family members by not committing suicide even though you could be non-existent to alleviate some suffering of others?

Quote:

No because I place value on people's right not to be killed against their will. Also destroying the planet wouldn't fix anything because the system would just repeat. Simiarly we don't know if there is sentient life on other planets.

However we need more data to determine whether or not we can justify continuing the system I suppose.

a) If in 400 years humanity starts a nuclear war and everything dies slowly and painfully = can't justify.

b) Human society flourishes and humans control the universe or whatever = justifiable.

Quote:

So if you somehow possess the knowledge that case A is true, and have the means to destroy all life on the planet, you would press the button?

I would not.

Quote:

You would have to make the case that killing everything is less evil than allowing it to endure torture, disease, starvation, war, slow radioactive death etc. I think most people would assert that this is a wildly unjustifiable position.

Quote:

I can't tell which of the two cases you are identifying as "unjustifiable". But the question was a rhetorical one; I assume from reading your previous words that you would indeed press the button. Am I correct?

Quote:

What I thought you meant was that in the case A that you described, it would not be justifiable to "continue the system". So I asked the rhetorical question of whether you would "push the button". I really thought that you would, since you have just stated that in case A it would not be justifiable to continue the system. But now you're saying that it's not justifiable to impose this termination of the system?

I will get to the other points, regarding rights and values, etc, after we clarify this part.

WAIT!!!

Just as I reread this post in Preview mode, I realized that you probably mean that you would not say that beginning a world in case A would be unjustifiable, but that is separate from the question of actively destroying the world in the case of A.

(So it seems like I was the confused one, as expected. )

But now I must wonder why you would draw such a distinction. You talk of "stopping the system", but you refuse my offer to "push the button". How exactly should it be stopped then?

I guess I'll respond to the other points now.

Quote:

Rights conform exactly to maximizing well-being. If by "essence of existence" you are implying placing value upon simply existing then I do not share this view; nor do I think you can rationally justify it. However, I was aware that there are anomalies (or rather one predominate anomaly) prior to this discussion.

Rights as we know it by the common definition mostly coincide with maximizing well-being but not necessarily.

My counter-example: practical instant killing.

There is no pain inflicted upon the mind that is destroyed fast enough and without warning. If you begin to argue that it would inflict pain on family members...well just extend the destruction to the minds of those family members, simultaneously (ad infinitum, to all of sentient life if necessary).

This was what I was trying to hint at with the "push the button" scenario. You don't hurt anyone, and you even get the termination of their suffering as a bonus.

So if you would not do this, why?

Because you respect the wish of a mind of not being destroyed unless given consent. This wish, as I demonstrated above, has no basis on the well-being of the mind if you chose to practically-instant-kill it, because by definition it would never be aware of the event. Thus, an example of a value you would hold outside of pain-vs-pleasure.

Quote:

I do not see how you can reasonably assert that value judgments exist absent of sentience. What value can you assign which does not ultimately correlate to some desire or emotional reaction? I would also still claim that while there are sentient organisms the rational mandate is to cater their collective welfare to the best possible degree; with little else of relevance.

Of course you are right about the relationship of value and sentience. But what I was saying was the ideal of pleasure-vs-pain, as a concept within an individual mind. Forgive me for the level of recursion...

Following the concept of maximizing well-being of sentients may give pleasure to a mind. Likewise, following the concept of respecting the wishes of others not being practically-instantly-killed may give pleasure to a mind. It is in this sense that I mean things other than pleasure-vs-pain may be valued by a mind.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Glitch — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 04:26:41 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 5:26 am (GMT 1)

That game was enjoyable for its comedic factor. I'm tempted to post it just for our random ally resigning without the slightest resistance.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 04:12:18 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 5:12 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

As you have defined it for yourself

I put no thought into this definition.

Quote:

I already named some examples: respect for rights, essence of existence, etc.

Quote:

Pain-vs-pleasure is just one of the many things that one usually assigns a subjective value to.

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Darkdude — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 02:59:39 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:59 am (GMT 1)

Flesh, if you want to play FPS I'd play Halo CE.

Or do you, for some reason, like L4D exclusively? There's not that much difference in shooters, really...
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 02:55:40 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:55 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

How do you define "paradise" in this context?

As you have defined it for yourself:

Quote:

It depends on the world you are extending your life in. I would extend my life in a theoretical "paradise", but not in this world.

Quote:

Which higher goals are you alluding to in this context? Are you implying that the incapacity to prevent suffering is why we can detach ourselves from it; or that you can assign something of arbitrarily greater value to over-ride it?

I already named some examples: respect for rights, essence of existence, etc. Pain-vs-pleasure is just one of the many things that one usually assigns a subjective value to.

On a related note, no, you can't consciously override it, as far as I know. You can begin in the state of already having something of greater value, or somehow result in this state without conscious override. If you refer back to the old post (in the thread I linked to with the Vandhaal Attack) I made in codifying what I called the "goal model", then you can see the argument that your highest goal by its defined nature is self-preserving (within the mind's conscious capabilities).

E.g. if you truly value pain-vs-pleasure above everything else, you will not try to override it, as it would result in you taking less than optimal actions towards that end once the priority shifts, which is contrary to your wishes at its current level of priority.

Or in the words that I've heard on the Less Wrong website, "Ghandi would not take a pill to make himself want to murder people, because he currently does not want his future self to murder people."

Quote:

wow, judging from a scan of the last statement from glitch alone, I'm glad I'm not even reading any of this...

So rationality is like the plague to Flesh

Poor guy doesn't realize that Empiricism is dependent on rationality.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

El Flesh — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 02:19:30 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:19 am (GMT 1)

wow, judging from a scan of the last statement from glitch alone, I'm glad I'm not even reading any of this...
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

El Flesh — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 02:18:12 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:18 am (GMT 1)

What a crap game.

I hosted, glitch and alb joined, along with a stranger - we got our asses handed to us pretty fast by loki/isis combos. There were the usual arguments on the losing side...

I buggered off then to bottle my wine and four glasses later, I'm not feeling any better about it.

Let's try left 4 dead, dammit...
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 18:58:03 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 19:58 pm (GMT 1)

Quote:

Suppose the option is to endure 10^6 years of torture for 10^9 years of paradise. Suppose the mind both before and after the torture would wish to take that offer, and the mind before the torture knows this. Why would the offer be refused then?

How do you define "paradise" in this context? And using this definition I may be able to better answer this question:

Quote:

And yet from what I read of your words, it does not seem like you would choose to be cryopreserved if you were given the opportunity. Why?

Quote:

So if you somehow possess the knowledge that case A is true, and have the means to destroy all life on the planet, you would press the button?

Quote:

So one can still be "happy" even if they comprehend this "monstrous suffering", because one may hold other concepts to be "higher", "more noble", etc, and be happy in achieving those goals.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:56:28 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 16:56 pm (GMT 1)

Quote:

So we come to this. You do not value only pleasure vs pain (or if I remember correctly, more like the magnitude of absence of pain). There are other values that factor into your decision making, including more abstract concepts such as rights, and cessation of existence (if you could destroy a mind fast enough without warning, the mind in question would not suffer from the normal traumas associated with being killed).

Going back to:

Quote:

the only way to live *happily* is to ignore the freakishly monstrous suffering of other sentient organisms.

So one can still be "happy" even if they comprehend this "monstrous suffering", because one may hold other concepts to be "higher", "more noble", etc, and be happy in achieving those goals.

Quote:

a) If in 400 years humanity starts a nuclear war and everything dies slowly and painfully = can't justify.

b) Human society flourishes and humans control the universe or whatever = justifiable.

So if you somehow possess the knowledge that case A is true, and have the means to destroy all life on the planet, you would press the button?

I would not.

Quote:

I have no explicit objection to cryonics

And yet from what I read of your words, it does not seem like you would choose to be cryopreserved if you were given the opportunity. Why?

Quote:

You would live in a jar when conscious for one million years... or am I misunderstanding?

No you are not misunderstanding. I may or may not choose to do so, depending on other factors. Simply put, I can imagine scenarios in which I would choose to do so, though these are scenarios that are unlikely to occur.

First of all, any normal mind would go insane due to sensory deprivation much earlier than a million years. Of course I would not choose to live in a jar in that case. But say that for some reason I would remain more or less the same person after the torture, able to function in a "paradise world" once the million year limit is up. If this is the only way to preserve myself for a million years into that "paradise world", I think I would go for it. Of course, I would almost certainly wish to die during the torture process, as my long-term and short-term goals shift in priority. Thus I would take measures beforehand to make sure my future objections won't terminate the preservation process...

Suppose the option is to endure 10^6 years of torture for 10^9 years of paradise. Suppose the mind both before and after the torture would wish to take that offer, and the mind before the torture knows this. Why would the offer be refused then?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:21:01 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 15:21 pm (GMT 1)

On further revision it is advisable to disregard most of what I have stated here; particuarly the segment regarding exploitation as I have put no significant thought into that. Although I will defend some variation on these concepts, I would rather do so in a less convoluted context.

I have no explicit objection to cryonics; and as stated previously my reaction was inspired primarily by a previous situation which surprised me.

simiarly,

Quote:

I think it would depend heavily on other factors. The situation you describe is too vague.

You would live in a jar when conscious for one million years... or am I misunderstanding?

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:06:18 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 13:06 pm (GMT 1)

No because I place value on people's right not to be killed against their will. Also destroying the planet wouldn't fix anything because the system would just repeat. Simiarly we don't know if there is sentient life on other planets.

However we need more data to determine whether or not we can justify continuing the system I suppose.

a) If in 400 years humanity starts a nuclear war and everything dies slowly and painfully = can't justify.

b) Human society flourishes and humans control the universe or whatever = justifiable.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:58:36 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 3:58 am (GMT 1)

So you mean to say that if you evaluate it "rationally", the human mind would break. Seems like I completely misinterpreted it. I thought you meant that once you do this "rational evaluation", your "empathic mind" is "obsolete" as in "no longer required for a certain use".

So indeed, it would break a normal human mind...or more accurately, the mind is completely unable to do this. Rational computation is still a causal phenomenon. That means to "rationally evaluate", the state of your brain will be quantifiably many orders of magnitude greater in terms of whatever process that is relevant when it comes to empathy, e.g. a billion times more neurotransmitters activating. Obviously this is not possible with your normal brain.

Sorry, that was going off on a tangent. We still have things to discuss:

What objections do you still have against cryonics?

Also, the "rational" thing to do, according to what you have presented, is to destroy all life on the planet to cease the suffering. Creating a paradise is of course an alternative, but it seems to require much more sophisticated technology. It would not be worth the amount of suffering to wait for that. Go ask Eliezer Yudkowsky. Achieving technological Singularity would definitely be orders of magnitude more difficult than destroying all life.

I assume that you are actively working towards global destruction of all life, because that is the only worthwhile thing you can do while you appease your family members by not committing suicide even though you could be non-existent to alleviate some suffering of others?

(I might be trying to pull a Vandhaal Attack here, not sure... Actually no, it looks like my past self had defined a Vandhaal Attack as basically a false flag operation, which rest assured, is NOT what I am doing.)
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 22:01:07 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2011 23:01 pm (GMT 1)

Quote:

I still don't see your defined function, and thus cannot fathom your meaning of "obsolete".

I just meant severely depressed to the point where it drastically lowers your quality of life and/or are unable to enjoy it. I defined that in an abnormal and redundant way.

Also in a straight utilitarian context the logical conclusion is to stop propagating the system... or at least make it significantly more predictable and less destructive... unless you can define some otherwise tangible positive value.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 04:07:50 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2011 5:07 am (GMT 1)

We're now going through multiple parallel lines of discussion, so lets try to make this clear. Thread one:

Quote:

Why would you want to preserve your life to such a ridiculously long extent? Is it out of hopes that the future will have virtual worlds to enjoy or something of equal interest?

Quote:

Well, if you want to die, you can still choose to exercise your "right of mortality" any time. So what is there to fear, exactly?

Quote:

Fear in relation to what? Fear of living for long periods of time or fear of dying?

Quote:

The former.

Quote:

It depends on the world you are extending your life in. I would extend my life in a theoretical "paradise", but not in this world. By prolonging your life indefinitely you greatly increase the proability that something horrific will happen to you, and simiarly the only way to live *happily* is to ignore the freakishly monstrous suffering of other sentient organisms.

Quote:

Based on that criteria alone you would kill yourself right now. Something horrific might happen to you in the next second!

The argument is that if you don't wish to die now, then a 75 year limit on life is simply arbitrary. Do you really think you'll wake up one day when you're "old enough" and decide that you don't need to live any more?

Quote:

Only because of the emotional consequences it would have on associated familial members. The degree of exploitation required to sustain us (Canada, Ireland, USA etc) with such high standards of living is not justifiable.

So I still do not see why you would not want cryonics. Sustaining a cryopreserved person costs only a few litres of liquid nitrogen every week or so (I think that's actually the amount for a whole cryo vat which can hold 4 bodies and a whole lot more brains). There is a chance that you will be revived in a "paradise" world. And if you find that you are revived in a "non-paradise" world, you could kill yourself then (or if you're consistent with logic, re-enter cryo...)

Thread two:

Quote:

Ignoring the suffering of other sentients is the default state of the human mind (note: I'm not committing the naturalistic fallacy, only making a factual claim).

Quote:

This is because a rational evaluation renders an empathic mind functionally obsolete.

Quote:

Obsolete by what standards?

Quote:

Obsolete as in unable to function adequately in an every-day context.

I still don't see your defined function, and thus cannot fathom your meaning of "obsolete".

Thread three:

Quote:

Our comfort is bought at the exploitation of other countries and organisms e.g. wars, slave labour, unfair trade etc. One of the most blatant examples is factory farming as I referenced in another thread. The millions/billions of humans who benefit from that cannot produce anything to justify the suffering they inflict.

Suppose this is true (which I think it likely is). In that case providing the cure for cancer would hardly be considered a good deed. You're only prolonging the life of the resource sappers.

Have you calculated the suffering that you inflict upon others with your existence to the suffering you would inflict upon family members should you commit suicide? From what I see of your position, one should seriously consider this...

Related to this, thread four:

Quote:

the only way to live *happily* is to ignore the freakishly monstrous suffering of other sentient organisms.

Quote:

There may be other civilizations out there still suffering. What about them?

Quote:

If we have no capacity to help them then it makes no sense to worry about them.

According to this, then, an individual needs only to make the utility calculation I have said above, comparing the impact of that one's continued life or suicide. It is no need to worry about the huge amount of suffering that exists globally or every sentient organism, as being outside of that individual's web of influence, they are unaffected either way.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 01:32:15 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2011 2:32 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

Obsolete by what standards?

Obsolete as in unable to function adequately in an every-day context.

Quote:

There may be other civilizations out there still suffering. What about them?

If we have no capacity to help them then it makes no sense to worry about them.

Quote:

Interesting... explain more please.

Quote:

And if you do, would you object to living in a post-scarcity world?

If you mean a world without suffering then I have no substantiated objection. However I enquire as to what it is humans would actually do in such a scenario. Generally pleasurable experiences are built out of releasing deprived and negative emotional states e.g. if you are under large amounts of stress when studying for an end of year exam (for example); the sensation of joy and freedom you feel when it is over is the release of the stress. Or say your hands are freezing from cold; the enjoyable sensation of warmth is the negative sensation of cold being removed.

You would need to create a system where the maximum possible satisfaction is produced at the minimum possible deprivation.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 02:20:09 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2011 3:20 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

This is because a rational evaluation renders an empathic mind functionally obsolete.

Obsolete by what standards?

We agreed on this before, but I'll point out again that rationality itself is only a means and prescribes no end. Only by using rationality in conjunction with already established goals, such as emotion, do you even have a criteria to judge anything (and this criteria is of course still not universally objective, since we have failed to find one to start with).

So if one chooses to ignore the suffering of others on a global scale, which is "irrational" by the criteria that states valid, "multiply emotional state of lost friend by 10^9". ...so what? It is valid by its own criteria, which is the only thing that individual cares about. I do not see any possibility of this being changed by rational argument. You could of course, persuade that individual by other means...

Quote:

Only because of the emotional consequences it would have on associated familial members.

Fair enough.

Quote:

The degree of exploitation required to sustain us (Canada, Ireland, USA etc) with such high standards of living is not justifiable

Interesting... explain more please.

But in the case of cryonics, it is likely (and maybe Flesh will explain this further) that you would be revived in a post-scarcity world. So costs would not be an issue.

Quote:

I'd only agree to live if I significantly lowered net negative via curing cancer or something of substantiated relevance.

Let's hope you do something along those lines. You already wasted our valuable resources for many years now.

I also would like to hear more about the notion that life is not worth living because of the suffering of other organisms. I doubt that you personally experience this, for aforementioned limitations of human biology. So what is the big deal? Or maybe you wished that you experienced this, for it is more "rational"?

And if you do, would you object to living in a post-scarcity world? There may be other civilizations out there still suffering. What about them?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:15:17 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2011 19:15 pm (GMT 1)

Only because of the emotional consequences it would have on associated familial members. The degree of exploitation required to sustain us (Canada, Ireland, USA etc) with such high standards of living is not justifiable. I'd only agree to live if I significantly lowered net negative via curing cancer or something of substantiated relevance.

Quote:

Ignoring the suffering of other sentients is the default state of the human mind

This is because a rational evaluation renders an empathic mind functionally obsolete.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:52:29 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2011 16:52 pm (GMT 1)

Based on that criteria alone you would kill yourself right now. Something horrific might happen to you in the next second!

The argument is that if you don't wish to die now, then a 75 year limit on life is simply arbitrary. Do you really think you'll wake up one day when you're "old enough" and decide that you don't need to live any more?

Ignoring the suffering of other sentients is the default state of the human mind (note: I'm not committing the naturalistic fallacy, only making a factual claim). Most humans go through life never knowing a clue about it. The few that know the numbers can't achieve the analogous emotional response in their minds. No one can multiply the suffering that they might feel for a person close to them by billions to get the scale of global suffering.

And of course, there is no reason to try to rewire our brains to comprehend this. For example, I am aware of the existence of said suffering. I am not responding in appropriate proportion when compared to my actions done to prevent my own suffering. I do not wish to change this disproportionality. Is there any rational argument that would make me change my mind? I doubt it, as we have concluded the absence of objective teleology.

But that is aside from the point. You may have reasons to live and reasons not to. The only thing related to life extension is: why would you live now but stop your life at an arbitrary point?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:29:21 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2011 14:29 pm (GMT 1)

It depends on the world you are extending your life in. I would extend my life in a theoretical "paradise", but not in this world. By prolonging your life indefinitely you greatly increase the proability that something horrific will happen to you, and simiarly the only way to live *happily* is to ignore the freakishly monstrous suffering of other sentient organisms.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 23:47:50 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2011 0:47 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

Fear in relation to what? Fear of living for long periods of time or fear of dying?

The former.

As for Flesh's proposal, I think it would depend heavily on other factors. The situation you describe is too vague.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:12:33 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Mon 14 Feb, 2011 20:12 pm (GMT 1)

Cryonics just reminded me of Flesh once saying he would preserve his brain for a million years in a jar even if conscious. I guess my reaction was partly inspired by that.

Quote:

So what is there to fear, exactly?

Fear in relation to what? Fear of living for long periods of time or fear of dying?

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:36:02 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Mon 14 Feb, 2011 18:36 pm (GMT 1)

My current life is enjoyable enough that I do not think I would get bored of it in a mere century or so.

Well, if you want to die, you can still choose to exercise your "right of mortality" any time. So what is there to fear, exactly? It's not like you're a lich cursed with immortality. Although that would be cool enough in itself.

I believe that in the last discussion we had on this issue (at least a year ago), I was not an advocate of cryonics on the reason that I do not think the probability of payoff would justify the effort. Since then I have learned that the costs are not that high.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:49:12 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Mon 14 Feb, 2011 14:49 pm (GMT 1)

Why would you want to preserve your life to such a ridiculously long extent? Is it out of hopes that the future will have virtual worlds to enjoy or something of equal interest?

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 00:43:04 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Mon 14 Feb, 2011 1:43 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

It would have to be.

So we can't have nanotech before singularity?

Can you say what the sort of cryonics you advocate are? How is it different from the "regular" kind?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

El Flesh — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:55:33 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2011 22:55 pm (GMT 1)

It would have to be. The cryonics I advocate, though, is alot more expensive than I had originally thought. It appears that there might be some shyster companies out there.
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:56:07 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2011 17:56 pm (GMT 1)

...okay, I don't think any of us regulars here needed reminding of that...

So what do you think of cryonics, Flesh? If I remember, you signed up for it, right? What do you think of artificial intelligence? Do you think that if you are revived, it would likely be in a post-singularity world?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

El Flesh — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:59:46 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2011 5:59 am (GMT 1)

We know that we can never have 100% proof until we go to Milliways to see the gnaB giB. Then we will have our 100% proof at the very end of time, that such and such a thing never happened even once in all of time.

In the meanwhile, we see some things as being pretty fucking ironclad; it's hard to theorize how we could be so off about something that seems to be utterly correct and has never waivered. This is weighty weighty fucking evidence. You could bet not only the rent on it, but also bet your life and not sweat in the least that you might need to forfeit it.

In the same way, no evidence for a god ever ever turns up. It pretty much is giving you a picture. It's looking as solid as evolution did in 1861 when Archaeopteryx was discovered; pretty strong evidence even if still "inconclusive" to the brainless and uneducated laymen.

And people will insist that because nothing can ever be proven 100%, well then you can never disprove their god, so it could exist, therefore shutup and leave me alone, even if it is 99.99999999999999...% improbable.
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General Talk :: RE: Guy tattoos his dink.

El Flesh — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:58:01 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2011 5:58 am (GMT 1)

To drive a portable coffin?!? No thanx
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General Talk :: RE: Guy tattoos his dink.

Darkdude — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:51:03 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 16:51 pm (GMT 1)

What's the value?

It's probably worth getting that tattoo...
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General Talk :: RE: Guy tattoos his dink.

Glitch — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 05:06:29 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 6:06 am (GMT 1)

mini cooper

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:45:02 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 17:45 pm (GMT 1)

Okay, I hope I don't sound picky and annoy you guys, but what are your thoughts to the links I posted?

Because if you read it, then you know that using Bayesian reasoning you do not look for proof; the evidence can push the likelihood towards certainty in any direction but the concept of absolute proof (as with classical philosophies of science) is non-existent.

Quote:

Evidence may or may not be conclusive proof. It might be a piece of proof. Therefore, abscence of evidence is some (at least) evidence of abscence. Not proof of abscence, but evidence of it.

And the thing about the Bayesian method is that you can calculate just how much more or less likely the hypotheses in question are true, given that absence of evidence. In fact, I think the point was that the absence of evidence impacts the likelihood of hypotheses just as much as the presence of evidence does (the "conservation of expected evidence", coined by Yudkowsky).

http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/
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General Talk :: RE: Guy tattoos his dink.

Darkdude — Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:14:55 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 17:14 pm (GMT 1)

What the hell is a Mini Cooper? Is it some super awesome drug?
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

El Flesh — Thu, 03 Feb 2011 06:21:07 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 7:21 am (GMT 1)

"Abscence of evidence is not neccessarily evidence of abscence."

or

"Abscence of evidence may or may not be evidence of abscence."

______________________________________________________________

Evidence may or may not be conclusive proof. It might be a piece of proof. Therefore, abscence of evidence is some (at least) evidence of abscence. Not proof of abscence, but evidence of it.

How's that? It basically restates what DD says in a different manner. And it took DD to say it (about two years ago I think) for me to realize it is so.
_________________
Never forget a friend. Or an enemy.

General Talk :: Guy tattoos his dink.

El Flesh — Thu, 03 Feb 2011 06:16:19 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Subject: Guy tattoos his dink.
Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 7:16 am (GMT 1)

http://www.bestweekever.tv/2011-01-31/german-man-gets-mini-tattooed-on-his-penis-for-a-free-mini-cooper/

only Germans would do this, V???
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General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 02:26:56 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 3:26 am (GMT 1)

A truly unfalsifiable hypothesis would accurately describe the world. Whether its predictive power is of any use is another thing...

God as proposed by the official dogmas of known religions is falsifiable.

God as proposed by theologians who keep moving the goal posts is a useless hypothesis. It should be ignored on the basis of lack of utility, but not rejected due to its reasoning; it is not false, after all.

But uh...Eliezer Yudkowsky doesn't care about falsifiability, as far as I know. That the Way of Bayes has rendered Popper obsolete, I think is his point.

The claim that lack of evidence for god is not evidence against god due to the fact that god may hide himself is flawed only in the sense that this lack of evidence makes the probability of the no god hypothesis even more likely, even if god is likely to hide himself.

You read the post, right?
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General, Game related and Website News & Information :: RE: Lord of the rings total war

El Flesh — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 14:52:29 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 15:52 pm (GMT 1)

That sounds cool...
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General, Game related and Website News & Information :: Lord of the rings total war

Oscar — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:56:17 GMT

Author: Oscar
Subject: Lord of the rings total war
Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 13:56 pm (GMT 1)

guys if:

1) you have spare time

2) you have alexander expansion

3) you love lotr and rtw

I really advise you to try out this great mod!

You get info and download links here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

On of the cool features playing the campaign of this mod are the scripted events: for example if you are Mordor faction and find and kill Frodo the ring becomes your and you can finally unleash the kickass Sauron on the battlefiled . On the other hand if you play the Free people faction campaign and you manage to move Frodo near Mount Doom Mordor faction will be destroyed without conquesting all its cities. There are many other events impemented in the campaign, they can be red in th posts of this topic:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=394850

Another great thing is that cities like Minas Tirith, Cirith Ungol, Helm Deep look like the ones of the movie, they are not standard settlements lol

BUT the thing I found more EPIC are all the heroes you can play: Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Denethor, Frodo, Saruman, Sauron and so on are all playable!

So you can rewrite the story of the lord of the ring, for example in my experience playing as Gondor Denethor didn't burn himself like the movie, but died defending a city gates together with Gondor guards of the fountain elite units, Legolas was killed by Saruman and by his fire balls and Gimli and Boromir survived till the end leading the attacks vs the remaing enemies.
_________________

"No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity."

"But I know none, and therefore am no beast."

Richard III, William Shakespeare

"I fear no evil, for I am fear incarnate!

Force Commander, Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Glitch — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 03:40:39 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 4:40 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

It may not be solid proof of absence, but surely it must be some evidence one way or another?

I disapprove of labeling the likelihood of an unfalsifiable hypothesis in terms of probabilities (such as the god hypothesis), as in order to determine a probability it is required you have some form of empirical or mathematical evidence. The claim is better rejected as unfounded rather than mathematically improbable.

General Talk :: RE: Three Worlds Collide

Darkdude — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:32:33 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 19:32 pm (GMT 1)

So, anyone finished the Three Worlds story, or read some of the Harry Potter fanfic?

For the past weeks I've been reading this guy's "real stuff" on rationality from his website, Less Wrong. I strongly recommend you to read some of this stuff when you have the time. I'll link to some of the most interesting stuff I've come across so far (needless to say almost all of it is at least somewhat interesting).

As far as I can tell, the most important point that connects all these blog posts together is Bayes Theorem, applied to evaluating hypothesis likelihoods rationally. While I came across some form of Bayes in what embarrassingly little math I did, I never thought to apply the probability theorem as a rational tool for distinguishing hypothesis. After following Yudkowsky's posts for a while, I can see how useful it is.

One example on this: Evidence of absence. I previously always been a bit confused when someone says the "absence" phrase ("absense of evidence is not evidence of absence"). It seemed to me intuitively incorrect. It may not be solid proof of absence, but surely it must be some evidence one way or another? And just how strong is the evidence? If you apply Bayesian reasoning, it all makes sense...

http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/

Religion is not too frequent a subject on his blog; but since we had talked about it much here in the past, maybe this link will prove interesting:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/i8/religions_claim_to_be_nondisprovable/
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General Talk :: Eric Kaufmann: Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?

Darkdude — Fri, 07 Jan 2011 17:16:42 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Subject: Eric Kaufmann: Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?
Posted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 18:16 pm (GMT 1)

http://fora.tv/2010/09/05/Eric_Kaufmann_Shall_the_Religious_Inherit_the_Earth#fullprogram
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 03:18:24 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Wed 29 Dec, 2010 4:18 am (GMT 1)

some rnaodm party

albericht had to drag Glitch by the hairs to eso....poor glitch

but it was very fun

2 big games

and we ended up with 7 known guys...glitch, oscar,albericht,bourbon,fantasy, alberichts sister and yours truely

very fun games both of them

sleep well and untill some other day(night)
_________________

>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

Main Vandhaal webbie -- Mirror Vandhaal webbie

General Talk :: Smithfield Foods

Glitch — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 22:13:03 GMT

Author: Glitch
Subject: Smithfield Foods
Posted: Mon 27 Dec, 2010 23:13 pm (GMT 1)

In 2009 Smithfield Foods extended its self-imposed deadline to eliminate gestation crates for pig farms by 2017.

To the omnivores amongst us, don't buy from these guys m'kay

Send an angry e-mail to Smithfield Foods:

But don't we need to do this to animals to have enough food to feed humans? Nope.

http://awellfedworld.org/sites/awellfedworld.org/files/pdf/FAOConsult12-09.pdf

"Thirty million tons or 36%

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Oscar — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:45:39 GMT

Author: Oscar
Posted: Mon 27 Dec, 2010 14:45 pm (GMT 1)

no worries, that game oosed little time later
_________________

"No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity."

"But I know none, and therefore am no beast."

Richard III, William Shakespeare

"I fear no evil, for I am fear incarnate!

Force Commander, Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Glitch — Sun, 26 Dec 2010 15:17:40 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Sun 26 Dec, 2010 16:17 pm (GMT 1)

My connection died second game

General Talk :: RE: Merry Christmas

El Flesh — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 19:02:14 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Sat 25 Dec, 2010 20:02 pm (GMT 1)

M3rrY XXXMa5!!
_________________
Never forget a friend. Or an enemy.

General Talk :: RE: Merry Christmas

Urgwaine — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:25:35 GMT

Author: Urgwaine
Posted: Sat 25 Dec, 2010 16:25 pm (GMT 1)

Merry Christmas to all!!11

_________________

lol wut

General Talk :: RE: Merry Christmas

Glitch — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:15:58 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Sat 25 Dec, 2010 16:15 pm (GMT 1)

Merry Xmas!

General Talk :: RE: Merry Christmas

Darkdude — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 02:43:26 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Sat 25 Dec, 2010 3:43 am (GMT 1)

Merry Christmas!!!!!
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General Talk :: Merry Christmas

bourbonbaby — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 22:04:59 GMT

Author: bourbonbaby
Subject: Merry Christmas
Posted: Fri 24 Dec, 2010 23:04 pm (GMT 1)

Merry Christmas to all and have a safe and Happy New Year

_________________
BB

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Albericht — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:16:41 GMT

Author: Albericht
Posted: Fri 24 Dec, 2010 18:16 pm (GMT 1)

Well, its christmas eve and im sure everyone is a bit busy getting preparations for their holiday dinner ready, but i was hoping that maybe we could all get together in around 3-4 hours to conmemorate a bloody christmas deathmatch on eso. This time is ideal for the europeans i think, since they wont b glued to their computer near midnight.
_________________
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

The_Vandhaal — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 23:59:23 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Thu 23 Dec, 2010 0:59 am (GMT 1)

Oscar wrote:

mr vandhaal, I red your message 2 minutes ago.

I'm sorry Im too busy today to join your ESO party.

Don't wait for me, have fun

Ciao bella!

LOL...i did not leave a message today on your msn.....I just arived home (after being away all day) and was not planning to do an eso game

(somehow your msn is giving you mysteriours random messages......i hope its not bewiched)
_________________

>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

Main Vandhaal webbie -- Mirror Vandhaal webbie

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

Oscar — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 00:48:36 GMT

Author: Oscar
Posted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 1:48 am (GMT 1)

mr vandhaal, I red your message 2 minutes ago.

I'm sorry Im too busy today to join your ESO party.

Don't wait for me, have fun
_________________

"No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity."

"But I know none, and therefore am no beast."

Richard III, William Shakespeare

"I fear no evil, for I am fear incarnate!

Force Commander, Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War

The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

The_Vandhaal — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 02:41:54 GMT

Author: The_Vandhaal
Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2010 3:41 am (GMT 1)

funny and weird random thursday night fight on eso

loads of guys/girls where on: oscar, glitch, elite bourbon,fantasy

for some weird reason the gods kept freezing us up in a couple of games

( no not a hack just a weird eso connection glitch probably)

anyway sleep well and seeya all next time
_________________

>>>Your host for this evening<<<

El Vandhaal tiene gusto de las mujeres atractivas que usan los talones altos y las medias cosidas

Le Vandhaal qui aime les femmes qui portent des talons hauts et bas cousus.

Main Vandhaal webbie -- Mirror Vandhaal webbie

The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: x_redemption_x reveal himself as a OOSER and a BIG LOSER!

Glitch — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 01:30:40 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Wed 15 Dec, 2010 2:30 am (GMT 1)

Quote:

my ass they would have won!

The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: x_redemption_x reveal himself as a OOSER and a BIG LOSER!

Oscar — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 00:42:15 GMT

Author: Oscar
Posted: Wed 15 Dec, 2010 1:42 am (GMT 1)

my ass they would have won!

imo glitch you sound like a defeatist too often!
_________________

"No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity."

"But I know none, and therefore am no beast."

Richard III, William Shakespeare

"I fear no evil, for I am fear incarnate!

Force Commander, Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War

The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: x_redemption_x reveal himself as a OOSER and a BIG LOSER!

Glitch — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:09:03 GMT

Author: Glitch
Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 14:09 pm (GMT 1)

Albericht, Vandhaal, Vandhaal Fantasy and x_redemption_x would have won had redemption just helped V attack. x_redemption_x was also most definitely not a 1630 player.

The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: x_redemption_x reveal himself as a OOSER and a BIG LOSER!

Darkdude — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:05:17 GMT

Author: Darkdude
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 18:05 pm (GMT 1)

Play starcraft, guys...we don't have any lOoSers on GR and there's even anti-hack programs.
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The Vandhaal Online :: RE: Let's get together for a game on ESO !

El Flesh — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:13:18 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 15:13 pm (GMT 1)

Guys... It's XXXmas time again!

Time for MOAR WE... I mean MOAR TITANS!

Join in every Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon nite!

Get back on frikkin MSN and let's meet up and have some fun!
_________________
Never forget a friend. Or an enemy.

The Vandhaal Online recorded games :: RE: x_redemption_x reveal himself as a OOSER and a BIG LOSER!

El Flesh — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:10:59 GMT

Author: El Flesh
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 15:10 pm (GMT 1)

No kidding.

What a little shitbag. What was the fucking point? He OOSs a game that is so frikkin lost it's incredible. Did he think we would resign instead of hunt him right the fuck down?

We don't get to review the game stats when he OOS...we don't get the victory we earned. That little shitbag is DONE.

He doesn't return again to our games.

One would hope he finds out just which group he ruined any future with. It's not like he wasn't warned before the game. The other guy he was arguing with before the Alb drop game is probably just as much of a cheating asshole as he is.
_________________
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